Hiroshima Event - The Day After

[Andreas]

There have been 141 posts regarding the Hiroshima- bombing event, and they have been viewed almost 3000 times.
But by the very time the event took place, the discussion stopped. What happened?

For the record: (correct me if i'm wrong)

The event did take place on 09/27/09.
There were five or six (?) people with allied bombers and also one japanese 'zero' (a plane that was modelled by tat) which together cruised to the area where the actual bombings had taken place.
Additionally, a little squadron of three or four anonymous 'spies' appeared and pulled off some sabotage, like hijacking the callsigns of the event players and blocking the runways with an AN-225 or a 2CV.
At the end of the event the organizer asked for a minute of silence in honor to the victims of the bombings in 1945.

The 'spies' reported this in the forum and there were some reactions towards it.
While the event founder himself seemed to be amused about the sabotage, there were some responses that criticised their violation of the players' freedom to play whatever they want.

Then the whole thread was locked and every post that was submitted after the event was deleted

Here is the moderators explanation for this:

Seen as this topic has degenerated into abuse (again), I've deleted various abusive posts and I'm now locking the thread.

Sorry, but this simply is not true.
*Every* post was deleted, regardless of it's content.

Dear moderator: of course i appreciate your work for the forum, but i strongly protest against that kind of manipulation!
(by 'manipulation' i mean the deleting *and* the so-called explanation for it)

Remember, the whole debate was about whether or not a group of people should have the right to do what they want. Well it turned out they had.
But don't _we_ even have the right to _talk_ about it ?!? Come on!!

Maybe everything had been said anyway, maybe everyone was tired arguing and the locking of the thread was a convenient opportunity to put 'paid' to it.
That is how i felt, i wanted to let this go - i'm surprised how well this letting go worked for me and apparently for the most of you as well.
But:
Did you realise that tat doesn't post here anymore? The last time he did was here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5926&p=46691#p46691

That's what made me aware that this comfortable silence is odd and unhealthy. There has been no 'paid', no conclusion, no opportunity to apologize or forgive.
There even has been no kind of learning about how to deal with a situation like this *next* time!

And i feel uneasy about the prospect of chatting via FGCOM with people who i have unresolved issues with, pretending nothing had happened.


Your oppinions, please!

Peace, out. - Andreas

[ACE 007]

I don't understand why people would stoop so low to sabotage the event. I don't get it. I went to a party hosted by a Japanese family who were watching Pearl Harbor on their tv. The thing is, nobody cares anymore over on the West Coast, especially in cities like San Francisco or Los Angeles. I remember when I made a historically accurate livery which some people went unnecessarily ballistic over. I showed all my friends and teachers at school the livery and they thought it was a great historical model.

[yourgod]

People have posted their opinions.

The mod did delete even the innocuous posts in that thread, including my link to the screen shots which prompted me to create a new thread for the screenshots.

In total there were 3 official participants in the event. Me in a B-29, a P-57 escorting me, and the zero.

I'm not sure what you were getting at with the reference to apologies. If anyone is waiting for me to apologize they'll grow old and die waiting for it. I don't expect any apologies from anyone over it either. I don't think anyone has changed their minds about anything. I still feel perfectly justified in playing a computer game virtually any way I feel like, and others still feel perfectly justified in their attempted coercion.

I understand that some people were offended by the event, even though over and over it kept being referred to as an atomic bombing event, which it wasn't. I respect their opinions and their views on it, and I had no problem with people expressing/debating their views on it. I do, however, expect the same respect for my views. Anyone who entered into the debate with the notion that they would *force* me to alter my event plans to suit their overly fragile sensibilities was deluding themselves.

I made a gesture in consideration of tat to allow the participants to change the venue of the event, and apparently none of them felt strongly enough about it to even vote one way or another.


What bothered me about the whole ordeal was not people objecting to the concept of the event, it was those who took it past the point of civilized disagreement into the realm of character assassination and coercion through intimidation.

I don't live my life in pursuit of the impossible goal of never offending anyone. Many of my core beliefs are offensive to literally billions of people in this world.

The end result is no difference. I've since conversed with my largest detractors in fgcom with no mention of this event or ill will involved.

The only possible outcome from it is to simply agree to disagree. I still plan on attending WW2 and military based events in this game, and I still plan on hosting them as well.

And yes, I found the "sabotage" attempt amusing, in a pathetic and sad way.

[MAKG]

I don't understand why people would stoop so low to sabotage the event. I don't get it. I went to a party hosted by a Japanese family who were watching Pearl Harbor on their tv. The thing is, nobody cares anymore over on the West Coast, especially in cities like San Francisco or Los Angeles. I remember when I made a historically accurate livery which some people went unnecessarily ballistic over. I showed all my friends and teachers at school the livery and they thought it was a great historical model.

I don't know who you talk to, but my experience in exactly those cities you mention is very different.

Keep in mind that it is not personal for anyone younger than their mid-60s. You'll find a similar generation gap when discussing Tule Lake or Manzanar, which affected almost all Japanese on the West Coast during the war.

yourgod, you're confusing silence with agreement. You've been written off, as you clearly don't care who you offend. And you simply cannot fathom just how intensely insensitive that was. I've been to Ground Zero now (one of the real ones, not the poorly named false analogy in New York). You have no idea what you did. If you cared, someone might try to explain it to you (again). But I think it's far over your head.

[yourgod]

as you clearly don't care who you offend.

A mostly accurate statement. I would add that I do actually care about people being offended, but not for the reasons that you think. I care about what it means for humanity when so many people are willing to let irrational emotion rule them, and willing to use their own irrational emotional reactions to try and restrict the actions of others.

And you simply cannot fathom just how intensely insensitive that was.

You're correct. I would conclude that only someone looking for a reason to be offended would bother to even comment on what a few people get together and do in a flying game/sim. It smacks of people trying to ban GTA, Doom, Ozzy Osbourne, and Socrates, all because of their precious sensibilities.

I've been to Ground Zero

Where you've been doesn't garner you any moral authority. I've been to many veteran's cemeteries to pay respects to those who've fought and died for us. I've stood and contemplated at the graves of many WW2 soldiers, but that doesn't stop me from playing a German in Wolfenstein and lobbing a grenade into a bunker full of allied soldiers.

It's a game set in a historic context. Nothing more.

[MAKG]

Actually, it does.

I've attempted to understand the magnitude of the event there. You haven't. That's moral authority, like it or not. And you dismissed it again. It's not the same as seeing a military graveyard -- not even close.

If you think sensitivity is being "ruled by emotions," you missed the boat. There are other people in this world besides you.

[kyokoyama]

dude, i think we all agreed that the argument is endless and was made a draw. can we pleasestop?
FG is a place for cooperative development, not ethical arguments

[yourgod]

I'm with kyo on this one.

[kyokoyama]

yay thx

[FlugHund]

dude, i think we all agreed that the argument is endless and was made a draw. can we pleasestop?
FG is a place for cooperative development, not ethical arguments

Word!


And just to say, Andreas

Peace, out. - Andreas

This post was not the way to actually practising peace - rather the opposite. And, even if you have the right to talk about this (or anything), it is not always wise to make use of this (or any) right.

Griassla
Alex

[Andreas]

Peace, out. - Andreas

This post was not the way to actually practising peace - rather the opposite. And, even if you have the right to talk about this (or anything), it is not always wise to make use of this (or any) right.

Griassla
Alex

Instead of quoting my good-bye phrase it'd been wiser to simply quote the parts of my post that in your oppinion were causing the 'opposite of peace'.

dude, i think we all agreed that the argument is endless and was made a draw.

Actually my post was all about not having this common agreement and not having a drawn line underneath it.

can we pleasestop?

Why? *You* could simply stop reading this thread if you were through with the subject

I'm with kyo on this one.

But still you had a lot to say!
And i appreciate that you did so. I still don't like your oppinion and especially your attitude, but to me this is much better than silence.

I'm not sure what you were getting at with the reference to apologies. If anyone is waiting for me to apologize they'll grow old and die waiting for it.

No, it was just an example to illustrate my impression of an unfinished argument. I wasn't suggesting you to apologize
(and i didn't have growing old and dying on my mind either). Besides, you were not the only person involved here.

I don't want to talk about the event itself, this is not about ethics or bringing peace to mankind.
This was all about how communication works or don't work in this forum (and communication is related to cooperative devellopment, kyo), and i felt there was something missing. At least the records now have a short summary about what actually happened.

I wanted to speak my mind and invite others to do so. Some of you did, and that can never be a bad thing. Thanks for your replies!
As-salamu 'alaikum!

[wookierabbit]

Has the war begun? (again?)

[FlugHund]

Peace, out. - Andreas

This post was not the way to actually practising peace - rather the opposite. And, even if you have the right to talk about this (or anything), it is not always wise to make use of this (or any) right.

Griassla
Alex

Instead of quoting my good-bye phrase it'd been wiser to simply quote the parts of my post that in your oppinion were causing the 'opposite of peace'.

What caused the opposite of peace here?!? Umm... I am really sorry that I have to be explicit about this, but here it is: starting this discussion again

[MAKG]

What caused the opposite of peace here?!? Umm... I am really sorry that I have to be explicit about this, but here it is: starting this discussion again

The lesson you SHOULD get from this is that people have been seriously offended, and it will not go away by ignoring it. So, if you want a cohesive community, you have to deal with it. Does this community REALLY want to abandon any meaningful standards of behavior and respect? It's a common choice to focus on the relatively trivial such as "personal attacks" while ignoring the really big issues, but nevertheless, the issue is here.

Telling people not to discuss the elephant in the room does not make the elephant cease to exist. Quite the contrary. It makes the elephant bigger and meaner.

[Andreas]

What caused the opposite of peace here?!? Umm... I am really sorry that I have to be explicit about this, but here it is: starting this discussion again

So you think that peace is absence of discussion? Quatsch!
Note that there is a significant difference between living in peace and resting in it.

And why are you "really sorry" to "be explicit about" something? Well, no problem! You know: now that you've been "explicit",
i have the chance of telling you that you're wrong:

1. I didn't start the discussion, because it had never ended. That is the whole point about my post (did you read it?)

2. I didn't even continue the discussion. I did not (yet) mention any personal opinion on the Hiroshima event (again: read it first!).

3. The only discussion i started was about the act of closing down the original thread and deleting some posts.

4. The original cause for the conflict was that we had three guys hurting some people's feelings because they insisted in practising their personal freedom.
You and many others let this happen - that's alright, just as you please....
But now you can't even stand being reminded of it?

So you think actually doing stuff that offends people for fun is okay, but going around and reminding people of that okay-offending-thing is wrong?

5. If you really think that the cosy silence before was "peace", maybe we should ask a certain FG-develloper how peaceful he feels. Oh wait, we can't, because he has left our nice collaborative society.


There is an easy way to maximize the personal peace-level for everyone of you:
Simply stop visiting this thread!
If you were happy before, i wonder why you are reading this in the first place.