The Great Alien Debate

[mdsmith]

Does my rabbit count as another life form? I mean come on, it has its eyes sticking out of both sides of its head.


We will never know. Oh look, a flying saucer. Never mind, its just a flying disk.

Where? Runway 28R at KSFO?

[MAKG]

I once saw something move across the sky, it appeared to be at very very high altitude, but it was a perfect rectangle, with pointy sides, and it was moving very very slowly at a constant slow speed- going in 1 direction (East I believe). At first I thought it might be some weird shaped zeppelin, or one of them long balloons you can get, but it certainly wasnt the right shape I must have been about 8 at the time, but meh, I wonder what it was. Its still not enough to make me think theres "other life" out there, just maybe there is things we do not know about.

edit: it was pure black

Mistake #1 is assuming that you can tell the distance/altitude of ANY unfamiliar shape. You can only do that if you know its size. Which would mean it isn't unfamiliar....

Besides, you seem to be describing a Vogon ship. Did he read any of his poetry?

[Bravo123]

maybe it was a meteor LOL

[NicQ]

TMA-1 ?
That would be rectangular and black, but it's "supposed" to be at the UN by now, as an eerie counterpart to the main building itself.
Is it a sign that Jupiter will become a miniature sun, Lucifer, in 2010 ?

Hint : re-reading Clarke's Space Odyssey cycle (third book atm, 2061, or Odyssey 3), and all I mentioned above is from his books, which are fiction, at least in this Universe.

To put things in perspective, from real facts, rather than scifi, however much brilliant it might be : the F-117 was developed at the real Area-51, leading to numerous UFO sightings over the course of its development. Officially, the squadron tasked with the test piloting were assigned as Bandits, supposedly flying Migs (you know the USAF has a bunch of soviet planes, and has had some since the 1950s or 1960s ?), old Corsairs, F-5s to train US and NATO pilots for operations against Warsaw Pact air forces, alongside other Bandit squadrons who were really flying those birds to train other pilots, while the test pilots would fly the Stealth, using Bandit call signs to confuse OPFOR and plane watchers listening in on the radio. That's a whole bunch of sightings easily debunked.

Liam might actually have seen one, depending how old he is, as it was moving from the US to the Balkans, you know that forgotten war just a short dinner drive from Vienna. Not a UFO, just an ugly stealth plane

[Liam]

I once saw something move across the sky, it appeared to be at very very high altitude, but it was a perfect rectangle, with pointy sides, and it was moving very very slowly at a constant slow speed- going in 1 direction (East I believe). At first I thought it might be some weird shaped zeppelin, or one of them long balloons you can get, but it certainly wasnt the right shape I must have been about 8 at the time, but meh, I wonder what it was. Its still not enough to make me think theres "other life" out there, just maybe there is things we do not know about.

edit: it was pure black

Mistake #1 is assuming that you can tell the distance/altitude of ANY unfamiliar shape. You can only do that if you know its size. Which would mean it isn't unfamiliar....

I could easily tell its rough height by the pureness of the colour (it was slightly misted out) and the distance it moved, and it was moving very very slowly for proportion to its size, I would estimate less than 30mph, but was certainly gently moving. And the object was so small for my eyes to see, but it was clearly very big by the consistancy of how it moved, without wobbling or moving from side to side, so if it was small it would have had to be relatively heavy to balance like that, so if it was small and heavy it wouldnt be flying in the first place. There were no clouds and it was a very sunny day, the sky was pure blue and for it to be slightly misted out must have been well above 10,000ft. I don't know how to prove its height, but im convinced 100% that it was that high, and you had to look so so so carefully to see it, im suprised I even noticed it. It looked like it was being blown in the wind for definate, it was going with the wind and had no sign of any propulsion. I pointed it out to my stepdad and it took him an incredibly long time to even notice it.

And by the way I was about 13, and im 17 now . It was pure luck to have spotted it. It was heading straight over the city (norwich) south east england, heading east. Norwich sometimes has aircraft tests over it, but only airliners (in the news article below, a plane almost crashed ) . There are multiple RAF bases based around nrw, such as Mildenhall, Coltishall, etc. But it seems a heavy airspace to see such a weird object, Although a sinisterly simple looking object.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21170685/

[Andreas]

I think we can't be sure.

drew raises one valid point for the 'yes'-side:

Considering the vastness of this universe it would be the height of vanity to think that we are totally alone
and the only things capable of "intelligent" thoughts.
/drew

But on the other hand:

What if the existence of life is much more unlikely than we imagine?
The biochemical process of a cell reproducing itself is quite complex, isn't it? And it can't gradually evolve - it happens or it doesn't happen.
So what if this is so astronomically unlikely, that for an eternity, universe after universe had been born in a big bang, had expanded and existed without any life and any witness to eventually collapse, leading to a new big bang and a new deserted universe?

Maybe in all this eternity it happened only *once*, that one cell spontaneously reproduced, and this happened in our universe, leading to all that is alive.
That would make the chances for our existence almost zero, but from *our* point of view the chances are 100%, because we are here, talking about it.
The result would be: it is almost impossible that life evolved somewhere else as well, because *we* are some kind of a miracle already.

Maybe i just accidentally proved god's existence... if so, i take it all back

[MAKG]

I could easily tell its rough height by the pureness of the colour (it was slightly misted out) and the distance it moved, and it was moving very very slowly for proportion to its size, I would estimate less than 30mph, but was certainly gently moving.

You're fooling yourself.

You can see the ratio of size to distance, but can determine neither independently from a single observation. If you add mist to the equation, that's one more constraint, and one more degree of freedom as well; it doesn't help. It also brings uncertainty in shading and perception in; it's a net loss of information because of that.

Some of us do actually understand measurement. You cannot possibly make the determination you claim. It's essentially claiming you can tell the difference between 4/2 and 8/4.

You're 17. We've all been there. You think you know everything. You're wrong, and you'll find out just how little you really do know soon enough.

And if you don't know distance, you don't know speed either. Nor transverse motion. You have no scale reference.

Andreas, it's not at all obvious that you can't get part of a cell at once. That's a frequent creationist claim, and it is not supported by evidence, only supposition. In particular, amino acids have been found in meteorites, and complex chains of peptides have been created using presumed conditions of early Earth. It may not be as unlikely as you think; many of the astrobiologists around here think it's even quite likely given liquid water and a reducing atmosphere (very common -- the oxidizing atmosphere we have here is unusual, and is a product of photosynthesis, a transition well recorded in very old "banded iron" rocks). Even if it were, a few hundred billion trials in our own galaxy is quite a few....

[_Glitter_]

You're 17. We've all been there. You think you know everything. You're wrong, and you'll find out just how little you really do know soon enough.

Back off, don't add insult to injury.

[Andreas]

You're 17. We've all been there. You think you know everything.

Easy! Liam didn't claim to know *everything*, he just reported an experience he made as a child. Observing something that seems to be an UFO must be a very special experience for an eight year old, and no-one can take that away from him.
Observing and curiosity for the unexplainable is the core of science - i can see nothing wrong about Liam here.

Your reaction was very impulsive- i think the same sometimes happens to me: I wasted a lot of time in chatrooms talking to these crazy moon-hoax people. We have a lot of them here in germany, it's like a plague. I can tell you, they drive me mad. Maybe i should blame the TV instead, blame the FOX network. It's like a spell: People see something on telly and if it feels exciting enough, they will believe it, even if each and every scientist on the whole planet tells them they're wrong.
Why do i care? They can believe whatever they want. I think i hate their ignorance. They don't like science, they think it's boring to spend so much effort on gaining tiny bits of information and in thinking logically. Yes, they use their cellphones and automobiles but they laugh at people like us who keep telling them that "the moon has no atmosphere at that's why everything looks so unreal." (for example)

Maybe your plague over there in the states are the ufologists or the creationists. I really don't envy you for them...
In fact, i believe that creationists raise some very good points, and there will never be a final proof on either side (until, of course, the second coming of J.H.Christ )
The problem is not that some people (try really hard to) believe in Adam & Eve, the tragedy is that some stupid people have the power to make the rules about what the children of one highly develloped country have to learn at school!

And their main mistake is a wrong attitude towards science: Because even if The book of Genesis was true, Darwin's theory still happens to be a very important and powerful instrument to understand biology.
Sciences is an always improving and never perfect model of our reality. If god has a problem with it, he should go check his ego.

[Liam]

Theres no need for offence, Im just saying i'm convinved by what I saw. You didn't see it so you have no obligation to defer your thoughts against that- but I do respect that you backed your answer with knowledge. But if thats how we talk to people, I don't see why I took part in this ridiculous discussion when its just a thoughts shower, and not going to conclude anything except how we assume each of us is wrong in their own way. And that does not matter how many years I have been out of my mothers womb thanks.

"Aliens" is a term bought up by Hollywood and nothing else. Intelligent life from other solar systems we may well never know. UFO is a term used to describe objects that we cannot label as anything we know of, It does not mean a flying saucer.
Regards.

[Arthur Maiden]

Yes, there is aliens, but if theyre smart, why do they visit earth?
And america of all places?

[Liam]

Yes, there is aliens, but if theyre smart, why do they visit earth?
And america of all places?

True, they do like the USA of all places, thats strange!

[curt]

Yes, there is aliens, but if theyre smart, why do they visit earth?
And america of all places?

True, they do like the USA of all places, thats strange!

And from what I hear, it's only the USA and British governments that know the truth about aliens, but they are hiding the evidence and won't release it.

[Liam]

Yes, there is aliens, but if theyre smart, why do they visit earth?
And america of all places?

True, they do like the USA of all places, thats strange!

And from what I hear, it's only the USA and British governments that know the truth about aliens, but they are hiding the evidence and won't release it.

Aliens? I don't think there is any truth about Aliens, but im sure they have knowledge of unidentified objects and military activity which the public do not know about, and will never know about, but theres no reason for them to do that.

Humans are an odd race when you consider them to other creatures, we have an eager hunger for knowledge and knowing everything that goes on in our world, and sometimes thats not a good thing, it leads to greed, anger and war. Religion of course, is a perfect example of how belief is someone's way of explaining creation, and that leads to wars more than anything else. Knowledge is one of the most powerful things, so its often best that we are kept in the dark about certain things that we are not meant to know. I have a theory that if a giant meteor was coming towards the earth, I wouldn't want to know about it, and it would be wrong to tell everyone because theres nothing you could do except panic until death. Knowledge of all things has its pro's and con's.

[Arthur Maiden]

ummm, Black holes dont theoreticaly move? everything moves around them because of their immense gravitational force. Aliens told us that